[cups.general] Cups

[John]

I just found out that I may not be able to 'selectablely' select for email 
replies. 

More provocation.

On Sunday 09 May 2004 14:18, Michael Sweet wrote:
> John wrote:
> > ...
> > platforms though eventually. That's sad but maybe what is there in
> > printer terms allready is adequate for higher cost specialist
> > platforms. Mac's are being catered for increasingly though and I
> > understand that their insides are very unixy. What have they done
> > that Linux/cups hasn't?
>
> They have put a nice, consistent UI on UNIX, provided lots of key
> apps, and they are a big company which provides both hardware and
> software.  In short, they can provide one-stop shopping and support
> for the life of the machine which is more important for many people
> than getting the cheapest hardware and supporting it themselves.
>
> Also, Apple has a long history in the electronic publishing game,
> so a printer vendor that doesn't support MacOS will find them losing
> share/visibility in those markets.
>
> That said, now that more vendors are doing CUPS drivers on MacOS,
> we are seeing a lot more interest in support Linux and UNIX in
> general; the printer vendors are starting to see the advantages
> of writing a single driver and reusing it on multiple OS's via
> CUPS.  Right now this is primarily with laser printers, however
> I definitely see this spreading to inkjets and other technologies
> over the next few years.

DEC used to sound out a bit like that - it will never happen etc.
OK but I see a move away from the setups intimated by many of the questions 
posted on this mailing list. Most places that use windows based and other 
servers now use local printers. These are usually fully networked but are 
generally only used locally.
MS is currently making more inroads on the cost of support via their novel ce 
look alike training courses. I'm sad to say they have a point - in general 
all of there offerings appear to be fairly easy to set up and will forfill 
the needs of the vast bulk of the market. Dare I say that the only reason for 
not changing is cost and resistance to change. Why spend 4 or £5000 on a 
laser and make life difficult when you can go out and buy maybe 10. And it 
will all work.
My understanding on Macs is that there is a large variation in the level of 
use country by country. I'm not convinced that there is much cost difference 
when comparing like with like but I do believe that the intel platform has 
offered more effective 'mips' / £ for quite a long time now. I do see the use 
of intel based workstations for finite element analysis and very extensive 3d 
modelling programs and many other things that one would have thought would be 
happier on a Mac. Like for like software is also cheaper and more available. 
I do not like monopolies and am glad that AMD sales outstripped intel last 
month. (or so I have heard)
>
> > The two cups mails just arrived on my machine. One on a HP printer
> > and another on remote administration. I think that these illustrate
> > my point. Neither of these users are likely to be average Joe's. The
> > above average Joe probably needs instructions laid out in a for
> > example format that cover as many as possible typical printer
> > installations. All steps need to be clearly explained. Jargon needs
> > to be avoided or explained very carefully. Error messages need to
> > lead directly to solutions. Command explanations are probably
>
> We can definitely do more on the hand-holding side of the
> documentation, and we will be improving things in the web interface
> in CUPS 1.2 to make the documentation less necessary (aside from
> pointing the user at the web interface :)
>
> That said, with several thousand potential printers, connection
> types, etc., writing a manual to cover them all isn't feasible.
> But it probably is something that could be imitated via a fill-
> in-the-blank kind of tutorial.

I think many software authors miss the power of examples. Even a few with 
adequate explanation are a great way to get into anything. MS are very weak 
on this point maybe to enhance microshaft press sales. How many ways can a 
printer be set up? Maybe on a desktop, several on a server, or perhaps one 
that is many servers away. If cups is that specific one has to wonder about 
it. Sledge hammer to crack a nut?
>
>
> Apple hides a lot of this information from the user, and I think
> we'll be moving more toward that approach in CUPS for the standard
> UI, with an "expert" mode to get the "bare metal" interface.
If the bare metal involves the command line interface and a vast amount of 
knowledge I think that you will need to over haul that too. As I have pointed 
out the bulk of the users who use this service are not by any means typical 
joe's.

>
> > On the monumental effort involved with gdi emulation I can't comment.
> > It isn't an area I have ever had the need to look at but I can't help
> > wondering if cups is becoming archaic especially in respect to
> > printer availability and cost. It has even been suggested that most
> > 'stock' Linux drivers aren't very good. Why should a typical user
> > have to buy or produce another one? A windows driver will do all that
> > the printer is capable of. It will work straight out of the box. It
> > will usually install itself. True more sales may correct this aspect
> > but isn't that a chicken and egg situation?
>
> On the GDI front, it is Windows in actuality that is falling behind
> on several fronts, which is why MS is moving away from it in their
> "Longhorn" OS.  GDI is basically a dumbed-down QuickDraw, which in
> turn is a dumbed-down PostScript imaging model.  CUPS can support
> *all* of these imaging models transparently to the user, however
> in order to wrap a Windows driver we need to provide all of the
> Windows services *in addition to* the usual CUPS/UNIX services.

Lets hope they don't patent it. Maybe this vast flexability in cups is it's 
weekness. It came first and MS will have studied in detail and will have 
learned a great deal from it. (Allthough I think Tektronix predated 
postscript) I have often wondered in the past why MS sometimes change things 
that for a long term user do not make much
sense but now I'm using Linux I can see why. They will not make printers 
difficult to install and manufacturers will supply what ever they need. They 
will also not alienate the existing use base. Well not tooooo quickly.
>

> You get your printer drivers for free now because 1) Microsoft
> dominates the market and has had a standard printer driver
> interface for close to 20 years now, 2) the cost of the driver
> can be spread across many units and in some cases across many
> similar devices.  The standard interface has been missing from
> UNIX/Linux, and it is only now that CUPS is starting to "catch
> on" in the minds of printer manufacturers.
Now hang on. I have bought many printers over the past 35 years including one
or two postscript printers. I have never had to purchase a driver separately.
I can see why certain people would favour this.
>
> > ...  much deleted ...
> > They all seem to have simular problems and are unlikely to be equally
> > bad. In terms of the facilities offered Samsung would appear to be
> > paragons - if only it would work.
>
> Well, my only comment to this is that the problems you have run into
> are not caused by CUPS.  You have KDE, SuSE, and Samsung to thank for
> your experience...  I'm not trying to "pass the buck", just to point
> out that you could pass on your experiences to those people as well
> so that they can fix their respective bits of software and you can
> then have a working solution.

The general opinion here (KDE) is that this is  an underlying cups issue. 
Samsung I'm still chasing. Suse I will get to shortly. Samsung have tried to 
provide good cups drivers - this is unique as far as I am aware surely they 
should be helped not hindered. There is going to be a growth in the use of 
photo realistic colour lasers in the next few years. MS will fully suport it.

I'm beginning to sound like a windoze lover. I'm not. Linux has spread on 
servers. I would like to see it spread to desktops and home use too. This is 
unlikely to happen unless ancillaries such as printers are fully and easily 
supported.

Regards
        john